FINITE: B2B Marketing Podcast for Tech, Software & SaaS

#143 - Product-led growth vs brand with Nicola Hamilton, VP Marketing Brand and Communications at GoCardless

• Jodi Norris / Nicola Hamilton • Season 1 • Episode 143

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How does your marketing strategy find the balance between product and brand? B2B tech businesses often enter markets and try to grow through PLG. This does work, but oftentimes growth is slowed by a neglect of brand strategy.

On this episode of the FINITE Podcast you’ll hear from Nicola Hamilton, VP Marketing Brand and Communications at GoCardless. GoCardless is a hugely successful B2B fintech with a strong brand strategy built over 13 years. As their marketing communications leader, Nicola shares her approach to brand, and the distinction she’s noticed between brand and product-led growth. 

You’ll gain inspiration and insight as to how to balance the two. 

Speaker 1:

Hi, and thank you for joining me for another finite podcast episode. Today we'll hear from Nicola Hamilton, VP marketing brand and communications at GoCardless. Nicola has had a long and successful career working with big tech titans like Microsoft and fast fintechs like SRA or second generation fintechs. As Nicola would say, keep your ears peeled for the hilarious story of how her career started at Disneyland Paris. Our topic for today is a distinction between product-led growth and brand. Although perhaps by the end of the episode you might think there's not so much of a distinction as previously thought. We'll also cover why B2B Techs often opt for a product led strategy to start and how this can really trip them up in the long run, I hope you enjoy.

Speaker 2:

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Speaker 1:

Hi Nicola, and welcome to the Finite podcast.

Speaker 3:

Hi Jody . Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1:

It's a pleasure to have you. So we talking today about the transition from product-led growth to brand growth, and this can happen within organizations, it can happen with the in , in the industry wider, and that's kind of what brought the topic to our mind today is that we're observing it happening more in the B2B tech space specifically. So I'm excited to talk about that with you. But before we start, I would like our audience to hear a little bit more about how , who you are, where you've come from, your career so far in marketing, how you got into marketing maybe, and also a bit about your role now. Right.

Speaker 3:

Gosh, lots of questions in there, <laugh> . Let's start with me. So I'm Littler . I'm the VP of marketing brand and communications at GoCardless. And if we start off with, wow, how did I get where I am today? Well, I started my working life in France. I actually, I did a stint as a cowboy in Euro Disney <laugh> as it was back in the day. And , and I was a very bad waitress, but I actually started my, what I would coin as my kind of more career working life at the British Embassy in Paris. So I spent a few years there that was in the commercial section, which helped British companies who wanted to export to France. So there was lots of kind of research organizing events. It , it was that side of things. And I'd done a business degree and it was erring on the things that I was good at in terms of the communications, the writing, the organization. And that stint at the embassy kind of really set me up for my next roles. But the way that I got into technology marketing was when I came back to London and I started working for a marketing agency called Writing Image . They still exist today, but under ano another name, they are called Metier . And they had a lot of tech clients. And I started working on the Microsoft account and through my time there, I then built up a small roster of e-commerce clients. This was a very long time ago, Jodie . This was back in the day when e-commerce was a very, very new thing. Internet banking was a very, very new thing. So there was lots of exciting ways of exploring that side of technology and the companies who were really on the cutting edge of that. So that was really the Launch Pad . Thank you Stephen Claire from Right Image , that was my , uh, my launch had into the world of B2B technology marketing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, that's awesome. That's such a big transition. So one, being a cowboy waitress is hilarious. Thank you for sharing that. But then also it's interesting going from quite a stiff, maybe highly political organization into this fast agency world of not only clients but tech clients and at a time where it was growing exponentially. So really cool. And especially being in Microsoft, that would've been really interesting in those kind of like mid-scale stages, right?

Speaker 3:

Lots of it . So that was really when they were moving into that industry marketing. So obviously Microsoft was a , a, well-known brand, but it was when they were really particularly in , in Europe looking to market what they offered to businesses in different industries. So it was very much focused on that vertical industry. And I worked on a , a couple of them and then as I say , picked up more clients in that area. So that's what got me, got me into it. But I think the thing that I've always found interesting about B2B and and technology is that it can be quite complex. And the challenge is in how do you find a way of explaining that in much more simpler terms of making it more accessible. So that's always been the interesting challenge from my point of view.

Speaker 1:

Definitely there are so many cogs in the B2B wheel that you have to think about in the B2B machine, even like intelligent audiences, complex business decisions, complex solutions, especially in technology. Yeah , lots, lots there. I agree. I really like B2B and so do all of our listeners, so you're in the right place. Perfect. So let's talk about your current role. You said you are a VP marketing brand and communications at GoCardless. Yes. What is GoCardless and what does that role mean?

Speaker 3:

So GoCardless is a payments company. We are specialized in bank payments. So that means that we help businesses to collect their payments directly from their customer's bank account. So we do that for merchants who are collecting regular payments. That could be a subscription or regular invoices from a client. We would use direct debit, and that's very much where GoCardless started. But then also today we use open banking to be able to collect more one-off payments. So that might be just your paying for a a , a ticket or one service just as a one-off or other than a regular payment, but it's still very focused on bank payments. So those are what we call the payment rails that, that we use to make sure that it's as direct as possible, which means that it , it's cheaper and lower cost was , obviously in today's climate, it's a very big consideration for lots of businesses.

Speaker 1:

Definitely. And especially being that B two B2C is even more important to keep low cost . So you're, so you're a nice middleman then. Yes. But you are B2B primarily? Yes.

Speaker 3:

So our, our clients are very much the companies that are collecting the payments, but obviously you as a consumer, you may pay for a service and that payment is being collected by GoCardless. So we have millions of individuals who are paying for things using GoCardless to collect those payments. And it's really about, as I say, we, we work with from very small businesses, individuals all the way up to much, much larger multinational businesses to help facilitate that payment collection and make it, you know, do away with the things that are the bane of lots of companies' lives in terms of late payments, failed payments, lots of admin overhead, et cetera. So just trying to make that journey as easy as possible.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. And you're deep in FinTech, but that isn't specific to FinTech as well. It's something that all B2B businesses have to think about. So I think, let's get into the topic now. We've kind of set the scene a little bit about your position in the market. Mm-Hmm . <affirmative> and successful position. I will say that you were one of the finite 30, which means that GoCardless was one of the fastest growing fintechs that we noticed, and you in your role , um, had a big impact on that. So you're the perfect person to talk to about this. So setting the scene, let's talk about product led growth as a strategy. We've seen it happening from startups for the past since startups became a thing. Why do you think product led growth is the first kind of port of call for startups and scale up ?

Speaker 3:

I think it , it's really because when you think about, and here we're talking about kind of the second wave if you like, of , of fintechs and startups because you know mm-hmm <affirmative> , I've been working in what I would call FinTech for the past 30 years, but it was probably called banking tech where the , there's a second wave which came after the financial crisis. So around 2008, 2009, that's when that second wave of, of fintechs in particular were , were born and they were set up by founders who found a niche in the market that wasn't being served as well as they could. So that's why you've got all sorts of B2B technology companies, startups , but particularly in that FinTech world who saw that there was an area that technology now enabled to kind of fill that gap. So if you think about it from that founder point of view, they were completely obsessed about here's a challenge, we have a solution that can meet that. And it was all about the product. So the way that I'm generalizing here, but the way that the vast majority of startups start and grow is through that product. So they will, because they need a product to be able to sell. So the first teams of product teams that are, are kind of leading those and building them and looking at it. So it's quite natural that you look to the product as the first point of call in terms of how are we going to use that to grow the business, how do we get those early adopters on board ? And I think that combined with within the marketing world, a new found obsession, if you like, with performance marketing where everything was around attribution, how can you kind of attribute if I'm putting this amount of money in, what are the results that are coming out it? And that means that you have to use very specific demand generation product led growth tactics to be able to measure the results of what, what's coming outta the other side. So that has been a trend, it's been a trend in marketing probably over the past 10 to 15 years combined with the fintechs who are all kind of very product led . It's almost this kind of match made in heaven that that's how a lot of them really start and really look at how they want to do marketing first.

Speaker 1:

Hmm , that's interesting actually, that performance marketing piece in particular, why do you think attribution became so important? Do you think it was because of this kind of highly competitive funding and investment space that was looking for that direct impact?

Speaker 3:

I think so, and I think some of it is the fact that everything needed to have an ROI attributed to it and be able to show that it was paying for itself. Now if you look at the reverse side of that, and if we take advertising as the, the kind of, if you like the brand advertising, if you look at, you know, big out of home campaigns, TV campaigns, those sorts of things, they are much more brand led awareness creation and you can't get that same level of attribution. It's very difficult because that's more about creating the awareness and influencing your potential buyers in the market, but you don't suddenly get, or that billboard has led to this many leads. Whereas in the digital world, and remember a lot of this is very digitally led , you can kind of track if you've got a campaign going out digitally, you can then track the number of leads that it's generating, whatever the metrics are that you are looking at quite often in product led led growth, it might be about kind of signups, activations, customer acquisition, those types of things. And there is a much more kind of direct attribution and particularly for startups who, let's face it, they're not going to go immediately with a huge marketing budget. So what's the thing that's going to deliver first? And I think that's kind of the natural sway as to why a lot of companies start in that way. It's also, I do think there's a bit of herd mentality. There are lots of books coming outta Silicon Valley, <laugh> playbooks of how you need to do this, what works, et cetera . And you know, that's what a lot of people are reading and they go down that that route first. I'm not saying it's the wrong route, it's just that's kind of what we've seen across lots and lots of companies. Definitely

Speaker 1:

There's a big correlation between company size and how much brands work they do. And I kind of think that we see that even now and in a kind of downturn that we're going, that we are in really is , yeah , is is penny pinching and and trying to make everything count really

Speaker 3:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 3:

I think it's under it . It's having an understanding of what brand is, because for me, brand is the way that I look about , uh, look at it, it's all about creating awareness. So I think some people think of brand and they all automatically think I need to have my name on the side of taxis and buses and billboards and , and that sort of thing. That's not the only way that that you build a brand. So I think there are lots of tools in your brand toolkit that you can look at. I believe that it ranges from the external communications and that could be through pr. You could be really proactive in the way that you use social media. There are other elements in terms of just speaking opportunities, making sure that you get yourself, you know, if you've got really good speakers, getting yourself out to those opportunities. Things like podcast, great example, but events and those sorts of things. So there are lots of things that you can do to start to create that awareness, but it's not going to have that magic kind of lead into immediate kind of customer acquisition. But what it will do is make it easier for your sales teams when they are phoning people up and speaking to people that the person that they have spoken to knows about you in some way that they've heard about your organization because that's the first barrier that you need to break down.

Speaker 1:

Definitely. I think we've carved out some, a bit of a distinction between brand and this kind of performance marketing. When really is it a little bit more blurry than that? The line's a little bit blurred because if isn't performance marketing infused with brand in itself and if it's highly targeted, then isn't that just a more direct approach of brand or am I confusing things?

Speaker 3:

Um, I think brand kind of permeates across everything because brand is also, you know, it's how your employees present themselves. It's how your customer support team helps customers who, who may be having difficulties. So I think brand is absolutely not solely the purview of marketing because brand is the entire company and how you act and what you do and what you deliver to your customers. But I think in terms of marketing, yes you are right. Everything that you do can kind of touch on that brand element. I think that the biggest difference in terms of the awareness creation and then the demand creation is what the objectives are because when you start to do a campaign that you really want to generate demand from it, you may do that slightly differently if it was just purely an awareness creation and actually if you get some demand from it, that's all good, but that's not the absolute kind of key metric for that campaign. But I do think it's about having both and there are some really interesting studies on this about what , it's almost like the pendulum has gone from really focused more on kind of the branding and the advertising communications this big swing, the other way to performance marketing. And that's where, you know, 90% of the budget was going. And actually it's about, you know, as in all things in life, it's about having that balance and it's about having both and making sure that you are investing in both to the right degree because your longer term brand building activities will have an impact on your shorter term demand generation activations as well and will help them to become much more effective.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, definitely. Well it's that 90 10 role that we've heard about for a while, really interesting. I'd love to hear more about your strategy and your kind of take on brand and external comms at GoCardless or any of your other roles. How do you approach it and how do you find that balance and what are the kind of activities and and target initiatives and campaigns that you are doing?

Speaker 3:

So like everybody, I would, you know, I would love that there was more investment on the, on the brand side, but as you said, you know, we are all working in a constrained environment these days. So it's that , which I do think helps with creativity as well because when you have less to work with, you really think about what you are doing and what the impact is. But at , at GoCardless, so my team, we cover internal and external communications, external affairs because obviously being, you know , we are a payments company, we're regulated, so keeping an eye on the regulations, the public policy, what's happening there is really important content marketing and then brand design in terms of the visual identity and how everything comes together from that look and feel and having that unique identity for GoCardless. So there's a few areas that we are focused on making sure that we have our share of voice. So through earned media is a strategy that we've really kind of focused on over the last four years I would say there's a been , you know, it was happening and I think lots of startups in that smaller space where maybe get an agency and have somebody on board . But we, we've really kind of focused on that, that we want to build up our reputation in the market, particularly in the FinTech space, but also in other business titles that we want to reach our audience through and make sure that we've got that coverage. I think social media is a really interesting one for B2B companies. We, I think it's, the way that I see it more and more is it , it's a paid advertising channel to do it really, really well organically as a B2B company, I'd love anyone who's doing it super successfully and says that they're having lots of impact , but I, I think it's hard to cut through the noise without a big investment. But then I do wonder about the results that you are getting back through from that. From an organic level, I really do think you, I'm not saying that you shouldn't do social media, you should, but it , it's not a free channel. I think that's maybe been a perception over time that you know, oh we've got these channels and we can just publish things and we can do it really cost effectively , but actually you need to put money behind it to make it work really well. I think one interesting area that we've gone into fairly recently is sponsorship. So we are the official payments partner for Swim England, which is the governing body of aquatics in England. And that is for two reasons. One is the brand awareness in that space and within those clubs and organizations and hopefully by association into other types of sports clubs who are a good target customer base for GoCardless. And we already serve a lot of customers in that area, but also that , so it's one, we're looking at it from a commercial perspective, but also from that brand building perspective and sponsorships, we spent a lot of time kind of looking at who was the right partner for us, what we wanted to have in that contract, what would make it work. So for example, I get approached a lot from various sporting organizations about what I would say the typical just pure branding, like having your logo on the, the shirt of a football club and that sort of thing. That's probably not going to cut it for us in terms of we, we need other angles to be able to make that work from both that commercial and that brand perspective. So that's early days into that partnership, but that's something that I'm really excited about, want to make that successful because I would see us expanding into other areas with that if we can make that one really, really work.

Speaker 1:

Awesome. Yeah, there's a lot there and I can see how it all is leading itself into that 90 10 rule keeping GoCardless top of mind and also building a bit of trust. Yes, I do wanna talk about trust a bit more. We cover it all the time on the podcast and I know you have an interesting perspective on it, fintechs especially, but B2B in general, they tend to think trust is something that needs to be built from the start. It's has to be earned, it has to be kind of built over multiple channels over a period of time and with proof points , et cetera . What's your opinion on this and how does trust come into marketing from your perspective?

Speaker 3:

I think it's a very interesting area trust because I think when, particularly if you're looking at FinTech, the vast majority of fintechs will be regulated. So if you look at GoCardless, we are regulated by the FCA in other countries. We have other regulating bodies that, you know, we are looking after people's money so it makes sense that there are safeguards and regulations and compliance and all sorts of things that we need to adhere to. And it , it sets up those guardrails and parameters within which we operate. So I think at , at that level where you are looking at fintechs who are regulated, there's a degree of, and I kind of saying the word kind of a hygiene factor, but it it , I don't mean it in the fact that you should take trust for granted, but there are certain elements that, because it's that sort of org regulated organization trust is a little bit implicit in some of those things. So then I think it's about what are the areas where you need to build up other areas of trust. So for me it's about, you know, does your product do what it says it's going to do and does it deliver the value that you say it's going to offer? Because if you meet that, if you go out with a value proposition and then you have customers who are seeing those benefits and in turn will talk about them, that's a way of building great trust through your customer base. And obviously having a some sort of a , a customer advocacy program is really, really important because people buy from people at the end of the day that it's those brave souls who are the early adopters and the first to market on things generally. People like to see that you've done this before with other companies and that they are benefiting from it. So I think that's a really good way to build trust in your customer base and have all sorts of examples of different sizes of organizations, different types of organizations doing that. I think another area is your customer support never to be underestimated. I think that builds a huge amount of trust in when your customers come to you because they need help, they're having an issue with something, the way in which you can deal with that and deal with it effectively helps to build that trust. So I think, you know, having teams where we've got an amazing customer support team, they've won lots of awards, I think it's something that we probably don't promote as much as we probably should in terms of how we are doing that really, really well for our customers. I think the third element is then is how you deal with the unexpected things, the crisis, you know, something that falls down and it may not be due to you or Covid for example, how you kind of take that customer first approach and how you look at those things. That is, you know, if you are doing things in the right way for your customers then, then they know that when these situations come up they trust that you are going to deal with it correctly and with them in mind. And I think that's a really, really important element. So that's probably quite a widespread view of trust, but it , it's in the same way as brands , I think it kind , it permeates through everything and you want your customers to look at you that, you know, you have your back, You are a partner to them with , you know, their success. We, we have a vested interest in their success and vice versa because ideally we want them to grow their business with us.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so there's kind of two sides of the coin here. There's the product led growth, which we've talked about, which does infuse everything. You couldn't have advocates without good product. You couldn't have, like you say social media, it's, you couldn't have community without good product. And then you've also got the experience side, like how do people feel when they interact with you and see you and try your product. So I guess those are those two come together again. Exactly. But it is a bit of a whirlwind and that's something that I find on the podcast to be quite complex to unpick and articulate all of these little tiny roads from one channel to another and tactic to another and between strategies and teams and silos And so yeah, it's, it is hard but you've done a such a good job but it articulating how you've perceive communications and brand when it is quite vague and all encompassing. But then again, so is product led growth . So yeah, I think it's been a really great conversation and unfortunately we are out of time now. Do you have any final advice or tips for anyone thinking about this distinction?

Speaker 3:

I would say communication internally is key because it's quite easy to work in silos because everybody has their things that they want to achieve. They have their whatever they are, KPIs, OKRs, you know, that they're looking to achieve. But quite often you can bounce the brand of the demand generation off each other by just finding out what everybody's doing, talking to each other, looking at how you can leverage those opportunities. And I think particularly in the environment in which we're in today, that's crucial because we all want to get as much as we can out of the same thing. So if you can leverage things as much as possible, I think that's really important. So go and have a chat with your colleagues, find out what they're up to and hopefully you can do much more together.

Speaker 1:

Fabulous advice to end on. Thank you so much Nicola .

Speaker 3:

You're welcome.

Speaker 4:

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