FINITE: B2B Marketing Podcast for Tech, Software & SaaS

#132 - Marketing strategies in high-pressure environments with Edgar Rouwenhorst, ex CMO at Mollie, iZettle and Superb

• Jodi Norris / Edgar Rouwenhorst • Season 1 • Episode 132

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This FINITE Podcast episode is for those high-level thinkers - those listeners looking to think top-level about how their marketing organisation responds and engages with pressure, both economic, internal or otherwise.

We're joined by Edgar Rouwenhorst, a successful CMO who has grown many leading tech companies, like Mollie, iZettle and Superb. His opinions will lead you to think about conventional approaches from a new perspective, with tangible takeaways for your own strategy.

The FINITE Podcast is made possible by:
- Clarity: the fast growing, global marketing communications agency working with leading technology brands.
- 93x: the leading digital marketing agency for B2B technology, software & SaaS businesses delivering SEO & PPC strategy that drives leads, pipeline & revenue growth.
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Speaker 1:

Hi everyone. Jody here, community manager at Finite. We are gaining loads of new listeners of the podcast lately, so I'll give a quick recap to anyone joining us for the first time. I'm taking over the podcast from our usual host, Alex, for the next few weeks because I'm here at the next web conference in Amsterdam, one of Europe's largest tech conferences. This year's theme is Reclaim the Future. So I'm interviewing leading guests for the thoughts on the future of B two B Tech, marketing and business growth. Today's episode is for those high level thinkers as I'm talking to Edgar Horst on wider marketing strategies in high pressure environments. Edgar has been the C M O at leading tech companies like Isel , Molly, and most recently, superb We'll Talk brand must have roles and product market fit. Get ready for some spicy opinions that go against the grain and make a lot of sense after you listen and love this episode. Head to Finite community to apply for a free membership and join our global cohort of B two B Tech marketers.

Speaker 2:

The finite community is supported by clarity, the fast-growing global marketing communications agency, working with leading technology brands. We are living through an unprecedented era of change, driven by advancements in technology, technology that has the power to be an impetus for good, and that will drive us towards a healthier, more prosperous, sustainable and equitable future. Clarity exists to tell the stories of these companies blending the science of data, with the art of storytelling to enact measurable marketing and communications campaigns, and deliver results to the bottom line. Visit Clarity Global to find out more.

Speaker 3:

Hi Edgar, welcome to the Finite podcast.

Speaker 4:

Thank you. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Lovely to have you here. We're at the next web conference in Amsterdam today, and we're gonna be talking about marketing under pressure, which I think is something that you have a lot of experience with. I think if you tell your story, your background and experience today, then people will see how you've, you've got experience with this.

Speaker 4:

No , absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So Edgar , I , uh, grew up here , um, just outside of Amsterdam and , um, um, studied economics and rolled into consulting and did a lot of projects around , um, structuring businesses, helping them to find new business models, new revenue models and so on . And then the financial crisis happened and, and everyone was in like, what's, what's happening now? It's not about finding extra revenue, it's about cutting costs. And then you already saw , uh, marketing sales functions under pressure. Um , how do we spend less or just stop spending at all? How do we structure teams? Um , and that was my first kind of interaction with teams under pressure and as a consultant. Um , we always there to help and , and make some tough decisions. And on one of the projects for a big bank here in the Netherlands , um, we were thinking about how to be more customer centric. And at the end of that strategy project, the advertising agency asked me to help to implement that, that strategy, which was a lot of fun. Uh , but I had no , uh, background or experience in, in advertising. But , um, nevertheless had a lot of fun in, in the world of advertising. Joined Ogilvy and , um, uh, moved to Australia for a couple of years, was in Sydney and, and Melbourne basically experiencing and helping businesses to use , uh, creativity to solve business problems. And it was a lot of fun. And I think the best example probably is , um, Shera co 20 11, 20 12, when I was at the Ogee office in Sydney, Ogly developed a shera co campaign, launched in , uh, in Sydney first became a worldwide success, but the first iteration I think of that was to , uh, to present to Coca-Cola. Hey, can we have a name on the Canon instead of the brand name? And like , you're crazy, but turned out to be , uh, one of, I think the most successful campaigns for, for Coca-Cola. And it was all about the same product, the same audiences, but how do you connect that audience to your product in a better way? And that was through , uh, that campaign. So I think a very good example of how you use creativity to , uh, uh, to drive growth , uh, and sell your products. But Australia, a great country, started to move back to Europe because I think career-wise , um, just , you know , three big cities and a red lot of sand in Australia, and that's it. So we moved , moved from Melbourne to , uh, to Stockholm. I think the biggest shock on many levels , um, uh, ly weather-wise , um, but also I think workwise. But that's where I joined. Um, I settle as , so going from advertising into the world of tech and , um, ISE was about a hundreds, 150 people when I joined. And they had different marketing functions within the business, but not really , uh, a good overview of what are we spending, where, what are the different peoples and the different teams , uh, are doing, where the product designer sitting with product, there was , uh, a performance team sitting separate and there was the , the brand team sitting somewhere else. And it was more about how do we bring that, that group of talented people together to do marketing That stems from, I think, a good, a good product and a good strategy instead of running around and hope that it comes together somewhere. So the first, I think the first task was to , uh, get a better understanding of the spend in the different channels. And once we had that under control, it's, it's building out the team, doing brand campaigns, doing acquisition campaigns, but also focusing on, on new users. And, you know, after a couple of years we realized that that is such an interesting area to focus on , uh, because existing users, they use the product, they are passionate about using the product because it solves one of their problems. Uh , why not use them in in marketing campaigns? So that, that's also though something we did a lot of fun. Uh, we are preparing for an I P O , uh, that never happened because PayPal came in and they , um, bought , um, is settle . And there was also time for me to reflect on, you know, what is next. Um , so I moved back to Amsterdam and joined m again, a FinTech with , with a great product and, and setting up the marketing team there to scale , um, outside of , uh, Netherlands and Belgium. And after that I joined Superb , uh, company based out of Copenhagen that , um, is combining , uh, booking point of sale and payments for, for restaurants. So more vertical approach where traditionally you have a different booking system compared to, you know, your point of sale . So you book a table for four, but um, you don't know what they're ordering and and how much they spend . And so it's very hard to get a good understanding of who your audience is and, and , uh, what they enjoy and build a customer profile around it and, and be more smarter about running your business. So did that for , uh, almost two years and now back in Amsterdam, enjoying the summer.

Speaker 3:

Cool. Yeah . Yeah, it's interesting that pivot from like heavily consumer with Coke to specializing in in B two B Tech. Awesome.

Speaker 4:

I think what, what is the , the red threat though is that it's all about decision making and how can you help people to make the right decision? 'cause we all have a choice . And , um, I think both from a consumer point of view and, and B two B marketing is how do we influence that choice? And of course, the channels are different and the tactics are different. Um , the campaigns are different, but in the end, it's a person making a decision. Mm-hmm . And then that's what you try to influence from a , from a marketing point of view. Um , and that is, I think what, what is so fun about marketing that you try to , uh, to change , uh, or steer a certain behavior.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. All of those tiny associations and multiple touch points kind of making people feel like it's fd that they, they choose your product

Speaker 4:

And <laugh> exactly. That , that's how it should feel. But, but it is years of work to , uh, yeah . You know , to get between the ears of a consumer. And, and I think the best example is , um, is B M W and , and , and Volvo two , uh, car manufacturers that, you know, make premium cars and the specs are pretty much the same, but still, if you are in the market for a more family friendly car, Volvo pops up more than than B M W does. 'cause they focus more on the driver experience and you know, the , the feeling you get from, from driving the car where Volvo, of course, they invented the seatbelt , so they can claim that that's that safety component, but it's more focusing on , on that angle. But it is years of , of , uh, building campaigns and , and trying to, you know, influence the , the decision , um, yeah . When you're in the market.

Speaker 3:

Yeah. And it's only getting harder. I mean, we're in a conference with like thousands of startups , the competition is heating up. Yeah. The investment sector is booming. I'm really interested to hear your opinion on the role of marketing within tech organizations in general. So where it is now, where it's been in your experience and where you think it's

Speaker 4:

Going . Yeah. Yeah. I think good marketing within a tech company always focuses on the product , uh, and should be very close to, to the product and, and , uh, um, I think it goes beyond tech companies by the way. But, but that is what it really should do. And , um, uh, for me, without a good product, there's no good marketing, right? Your product is as good as , uh, as your marketing is, as good as your product. And I think depending on where you are in the growth phase of, of the company and the , and the marketing team, I think it's, it's very important to, to be very close to , uh, the product and the user in the beginning, really find out, are we actually solving a problem? How are the early users using the product? 'cause those insights are valuable to launch new features or, or make changes. And that, you know, bringing the outside world in is as important as , um, uh, doing campaigns to the outside world. I think that that is crucial at the beginning and really understand the ins and outs of, of the product. And, and I'm sometimes surprised that commercial teams don't take the time , um, or don't have the interest. That's, that's of course also possible <laugh> , but don't take the time to, to really understand the product and, and the problem that , that we, that we're trying to solve. So that is, that is very important. And if, if the product is there and successful and , and it's launched, then it's time to really drive the growth and, and find out where are the users, how can we scale that in a better way? How do we use more channels to, to reach the audience? And, and also how do we find, how do we broaden that, the targeting of , of our audience? Because you want to grow and , and bring new people in, people that might not be aware that you exist. Um, and then of course, what I mentioned before as well is then using existing users to do a lot of the heavy lifting when it comes to , uh, the marketing. Hmm . Um , so then, you know, when, when the product is there, you can really do full , full funnel marketing and having that approach. But in the beginning it's really about understanding the audience. What a lot of companies do is they want to grow straight away and have unrealistic expectations of, of what commercial teams can do. I think it's, it's all about making sure that the product is there before delivering on those expectations. 'cause I've also seen , uh, firsthand that if the product is not really there, then it's very hard to find the right audience. And it's very hard to meet the expectations that they have , um, because, you know, you make some promises , um, in the world of marketing that , um, you need to deliver on. And I think with, with both Molly and is , I've seen how a great product can can lead to great marketing because it actually, you know, solves a , um, um, a problem that they face every single day.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. That organic growth approach is definitely more stable.

Speaker 1:

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Speaker 3:

Do you think like the kind of fundamentals of marketing haven't really changed much and won't really change, it's just listening to your audience and like responding to them and , and just meeting their needs? Yeah,

Speaker 4:

I think the , the , the channels change and of course the messaging change, but , uh, it , it really comes down to how do we get people exposed to a product or a service and, and how do we make sure that they make the decision for that product or service. That always has been the, the , the focus of the marketing , uh, area that , that always will be. I think it's, it's fun to figure out how do we channel different channels, interact with each other, how do different skills within the team interact with each other? And, and that is changing on an ongoing basis. That changes weekly, right? There , there different tools coming out that you can use to, to do smarter targeting, to do better messaging and to create more content. But I think it's really combining those new opportunities of basically ways of working to make sure that , um, the audience is aware and that you have something that , uh, they're looking for. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Definitely. So that, that product market fit, right? Yeah. So we've talked about a few , um, kind of key ingredients of the marketing mix. Yeah . Are there any more that you think are kind of crucial?

Speaker 4:

No. Yeah. You , you mentioned that the product market fit , I think that that is crucial for, for , uh, the product teams and, and more the, you know, the, the product and tech side to really figure out is their product market fit . But when I hear commercial teams talk about a product market fit, then I often think, well that shouldn't be , um, your, your main concern , uh, because it's there, right? That's, that's, that's very often the purpose of , of the company and the reason why they exist. I think from a commercial point of view, it's more about the audience channel fit , that that is important. You know, who is your audience and, and what channels can we use to , uh, to find them and , and interact with them . So sometimes, you know , I think it's, it's perfect market fit . Yes. You know, it's, it's , uh, it needs to be there, but from a commercial point of view, I think there's another fit that you need to ensure. Don't worry too much about the product market fit . I think what you can do though, as a , as a commercial team is to, to really and early identify changes in the market and bring them back to, to the product teams to , to make changes or, or introduce new features. But it's really about figuring out where they are and and , and who they are and, and what to tell, what to say to them . Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I think that's a really interesting point , not something that we hear a lot. This kind of, yes, you naturally you will have product market fit if you have a great product. Yeah . That's the point. Yeah . So yeah, leveraging those channels. So how do you go about finding which channels are important for your, in your experience? Yeah , in audience ,

Speaker 4:

I think it , there's, there's some, some channels that work within, you know, and I've got a lot of FinTech experience, but that there's work in , in FinTech and that's how people look for financial products. Um , search is is one of them, but it's really figuring out what is the ideal mix, right? And, and how do we spend the right amount of money in different channels and, and what is the , the effect of different channels on , on other channels. And I think that finding that mix, it's, it's, you know , it's test and learn and uh, and , and quickly make pivots and changes when uh , when you think, okay, this is working, this is not working. 'cause it's also a risk to underspend certain channels. So if you see that something is working, why not allocate some extra budget? And I think that's why it is so important to think about what is the behavior that we expect from, from certain channels and , uh, for instance, awareness channels and, and you know , what do you expect from 'em ? And I don't believe in measuring , um, aided or unaided brand awareness 'cause it doesn't really drive a behavior. What does it tell you that some people might have heard about your brand? Because most people don't know what they had for breakfast yesterday. So how can they remember what, you know, what kind of brands they're exposed to. It's, it's, it's impossible. So I, I believe more in what kind of behavior do we wanna drive in certain channels. And, and for me, awareness channels very often need to , uh, drive a visit to a website. So that is something you can measure. So I'd rather, you know , think about what is, what is what , what's the behavior that we wanna measure and wanna influence , uh, and measure that? Because otherwise you're gonna judge judge channels , um, on the wrong merits. And, and that would be a shame. And of course, you know, you wanna find the connection between that awareness channel and then say a sign off or an activation, but then start first with what do we expect from that , that awareness channel.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think that's another really interesting point. 'cause we had a lot of conversation last year when Berg Bass and the LinkedIn Institute, they were all coming up with these reports that were all like, brand, brand, brand. It doesn't matter where, get those touchpoint out there. I know MailChimp was sponsoring Bjork's podcast. Yeah . And , and Salesforce was sponsoring nascar and it was like, well, let's just get the logo out there. But it's interesting how your experience, and in that, when you are under pressure, when you've got the lower budgets, when you're starting up, you have to kind of prioritize differently and actually have that hard r o i . Yeah ,

Speaker 4:

Yeah . No, absolutely. And , and I'm a , I'm a big fan of, of Byron's show , uh, books. And, and I , I , I do believe that it is important to be top of mind because when people are in market , um, you only think about, you know , the brands that , that you're exposed to. So yes, I , I fully believe in that. And, and I think when it comes down to the marketing function under pressure, very often you'll hear things like, oh, let's, let's cut performance spend with 30%, or let's not do brand campaigns. But I don't really think that this is a solution. I think what it comes down to is how can we be more efficient in the spend that we have and think through what the impact is. Because if you would stop with a set of performance, spend in, in , you know , in a certain period of time, what is then the effect? You might get less leads or lesser quality leads, which affect the , the sales team. Um , they will have to work harder to convert the , the lower quality leads or just have less to do because there's, there's no leads coming in that will affect the customer success team that for the onboarding. So it has this waterfall effect on, on other teams. And if you don't think about that, then you're not only, you are impacting the marketing team, but the , the , the outcome of , of , for other teams is probably even, even , uh, more damaging. So it's really important to think through what do we actually want to improve and, and cutting costs , yes , it's one way, but I think it's not always the best way to get a better outcome for, for less investment or, you know, just in , in overall a better return. So yeah , I don't believe in, in cutting just the marketing budget, but it's , it's, you know, it's one of the first line items that, that people will look at, which is a shame because it, it will affect other teams and, and it takes a long time to build up again. Um , then it makes more sense to me to , to figure out, okay, how can we just optimize certain parts in the funnel? And then you , you might end up spending 10% less, but you are only sacrificing maybe , uh, a a percent or 2% of , uh, uh, of your overall conversions . And, and I think that's, that's more instinct to look into.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. And I think that's even more important in this kind of economically volatile environment that we're in right now. I wanna talk a little bit about teams , structures and roles. You're A C M O , you've , you've had experience growing teams and choosing which roles to prioritize again, under pressure. Do you wanna talk about what marketing roles do you think are the most important in this environment?

Speaker 4:

It's a very tricky question, obviously, but I think that, that within tech companies, it , it is crucial that that product marketing is there, right? Someone that , that can translate the product specs into the world of, of the user. I think that that is one of the crucial roles that , uh, is , is always a role that I would look for very early on and, and is just important to grow the marketing team. And I think that person also has the responsibility to , uh, represent , uh, the product team within the marketing organization and represent marketing within the product organization. So I think it's just one of those, you know, very important roles. And so that is one area that no matter , um, how good or bad it is going, I think that that is something that you need to have in place as an , as an organization. And then it's really about finding out where are you in the growth phase. And I think that, that it is important to have spent under control and have let , let's call it, you know , the , the acquisition marketing or the performance marketing teams , uh, in-house and invest in those roles because if agencies , um, or people that don't have a lot of experience in those roles start to spend money, it can go wrong quite quickly. So I think that's also something you need to ensure that these roles are, are part of the team, part of core team, and have the ownership of controlling the budget, know what the cost of acquisition is, know what the payback time is, and then you can build on top. I think that's , uh, that's another area that's crucial. And I think the other part is marketing roles that are very close to the user. And that can be, you know, event teams, that can be brand teams, that can be , uh, people that, that do email marketing or more like the , um, the , the retention marketing side of it. But people that are interacting with users on a daily basis. I think that is the other crucial part because then you get a lot of feedback in, you know, what is working , uh, from a product point of view, what is not working, but also what is working in the, the activation of those users and they're frustrated when signing, or does it take too long to do a first transaction of using certain features. I think those roles are, are crucial to , um, uh, to have . And then of course there are some roles that you would only hire when you have the luxury and the budget for it. But I think that , you know , product marketing, performance marketing and roles that are closer to the user are for me that they're just a given. They need to be there, otherwise there's no point in in doing marketing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. And I guess that's where alignment between teams comes in really handy. And like talking to the customer service team. Yeah . Talking to the sales team, making sure that you know what those users are going through.

Speaker 4:

I think that at every marketing role should , uh, take over the, the customer success , uh, phone, email , uh, whatever, whatever channel chat channels at least once a month to , to figure out what, you know, what , what is the language that they're using, what kind of questions do they have? Because it's gold, it's great input for, for all marketing material.

Speaker 3:

Yeah , definitely. Interesting. So I guess alongside these roles, how much do you bring in external or agency kind of ?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, I think that that agencies are great to get in certain expertise that you need at a certain time going into a new market and going into a new vertical or having a certain skill that, that you don't have yet. And I think performance marketing is , is one of those, but then also I think it's, it makes sense to really think what you wanna have in-house. And I understand if you only doing big productions in terms of TV and and , and so on, then it doesn't make sense to build a whole team around it in-house, then you just work with agencies. But it , it's thinking how quickly do I wanna pivot in certain areas? How quickly do I wanna make changes? And if the answer is quite quickly, then, then you'd really consider having those roles in-house because the reality is that it takes a while , uh, to interact with agencies and get and getting things done. And they're great for expertise and they're great for new ideas, but at the same time, I , I'm a strong believer in , uh, having certain roles , uh, in-house and that , that depends a little bit on, on where you are in the company and what kind of marketing you want to do. But yeah , that's, that's my view. And I think when you work with agencies, it's also important to really embed them in the way of working, you know, in the spring . So they, they have an understanding of lead times in within the internal team, the way of working in the internal team so they can adjust to that. And, you know , if your sprint planning doesn't align with, with an agency, then you , you can sub-optimize certain , uh, certain campaigns. So I think it's, it's crucial to , uh, to work in a way with agencies that, that matches your , uh, your internal processes. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Definitely. And having that communication topic of mind . Yeah . Yeah . Cool . So we're coming to the end of the podcast now. I wanna ask you one more question. So we're at the next web. The , the theme is reclaim the future. I wanna ask, how do you think marketers should plan for the future?

Speaker 4:

Yeah, <laugh> , I think marketers are always planning for the future in a way. Because when you look at doing campaigns or looking at messaging for an audience, you need to figure out what's going on in , in their world and, and what are the problems that they have. And I think that is the , the fun part of, of the marketing function is that it's looking ahead and it is making sure that you figure out how the product can help problems today and tomorrow. Uh , because some people might need some time to make a decision. So it's also thinking about, okay, they might not have, you know , the , the problem today, but they might see it tomorrow. So it's, it's already I think, good for everyone in marketing to think a few steps ahead what happens and , and almost try to think about what is gonna happen tomorrow and do great campaigns around it. Yeah,

Speaker 3:

Definitely. That's super inspiring. Yeah, I think all of our listeners will be very onto it, especially with the fast pace of tech and Yeah. A bit uncertain, isn't it?

Speaker 4:

Yeah. And, and that's fun, right? And I think that it , everything was a gi everything was a given then it would be very boring. It's fun to not know what sticks. It's fun to know what channels are, are not working. Um , because I , that gives you insight too , uh, to improve.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, definitely. Cool. Well thank you so much for coming on, Edgar. It's been a pleasure to talk to you. We've got some really great insights for our listeners and yeah,

Speaker 4:

Thank you so much.

Speaker 5:

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